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Ultimate Milk Protein base mix?	35,661 views
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Fishpotman

Posts: 124

#87 3 Feb 2019 at 8.01pm

In reply to Post #81
Hi NW,
Mouses are first for trials before medicines to be approved for humans. There are lot of common in fish nutrition. And I agree there are specifics for various types of fishes too. Age is a point too. I doubt that freebies can do any harm to adult carp unless they are eaten by kgs during few months in a raw.

Anti attractants caused by water microorganisms is a completely new info for me as I said before but you may agree that a strong poo in the lift is quite an alternative to good perfume of a nice lady.

christian

Posts: 1374

#86 3 Feb 2019 at 7.58pm

In reply to Post #85
But to those participate it is very interesting and as far as I know doesn't cause any harm, if we don't discuss we won't learn.

Poots

Posts: 228

#85 3 Feb 2019 at 7.53pm

Forgive my ignorance and intrusion but this bait ******** went round in ever decreasing circles on the black forum. The fact is, nobody has harnessed the real deal and the best options are Hookbaits, be it Matts, Marks or any other pop up. That's the story. Science tells us bumble bees cannot fly and oils don't attract carp. Facts differ, white paper all you like but it don't change facts.
Mcdonald and Springate, The Cons, Pukka Salmon oil. The end.

Fishpotman

Posts: 124

#84 3 Feb 2019 at 7.35pm

In reply to Post #79
Hi BB,
The anti attractant effect of zoo is completely new issue for me but worth of some research. Can't argue it now.
Hydros can't inhibit taste. Some of them and vegetable ones especially are straight taste enhancer in food industry. Soy sauce for example. Yeasts - another one.

How they can affect digestion?
“These results can be explained by the fact that high levels of hydrolyzed reflect the decrease of secretion of digestive enzymes by the large amount of small peptides and free amino acids in the gastrointestinal tract”

“Indispensable amino acid concentrations decrease in tissues of stomachless fish, common carp in response to free amino acid- or peptide-based diets.“

In terms of carpcare I believe these results are worth of consideration. Especially if attractions rates are the same for 4% and 10% dose rates.

christian

Posts: 1374

#83 3 Feb 2019 at 7.33pm

In reply to Post #78
BB

We have had this discussion before, you are blinded by AA's, there are far more factors in play with attraction than AA's.

I asked last time why are tiger nuts so attractive to carp? You didn't answer, but we both know it's not AA's. If we can harness these other forms of attraction ALONGSIDE the AA attraction then we are onto something much more useful than simply adding more AA's

Then if the carp actually like the taste of our bait then this will increase the amount they eat, exactly the same as humans and animals and in this case I do believe the analogy does stand up. Improving the nutrition will not have the same result, if it would the animal feed industry would not need to produce palatents at all.

Hydrolysed vegetable protein can be overloaded, we wouldn't put a jar of Vecon into a pot of soup, it would completely spoil it, but a spoonful would improve the taste. Hydrolysed milk protein including petpro has, according to the reviews on the sellers web site, a very bitter unpleasant taste unless flavoured. Now we don't know what carp like taste wise other than by experimentation in our baits, but they like things I find disgusting, but it seems to me entirely likely that there will be optimum levels with regards taste...more is not necessarily better

Good discussion this
Bob

NemesisWitch

Posts: 1422

#82 3 Feb 2019 at 7.23pm

In reply to Post #80
Your observations on hydro milks are very interesting Christian, and the fact that you've dabbled with combinations and found there may be a ceiling for their use (for whatever reason) that's been evaluated from actual angling results is fascinating, so thank you... That was part of the concept behind my original post, which appears to have been sidetracked (albeit in a good way).

Thanks to BB for your input too, all good stuff!!

NemesisWitch

Posts: 1422

#81 3 Feb 2019 at 7.18pm

In reply to Post #77
Mmmm.... Both of those papers you have cited are larval fish, one being Tilapia. That's like saying humans can't eat steak because a one week old baby would not have the ability to digest it.

Zooplankton will excrete waste products of anything they consume, not just hydro's.... And they excrete some form of anti-attractant?? Sorry this is utter rubbish and a poorly researched example by your bait man.

christian

Posts: 1374

#80 3 Feb 2019 at 7.13pm

In reply to Post #74
Thanks very much for the data sheet, it was for high nucleotide yeast so very interesting. I don't have the one for biomax product on this computer so will have to check later.

I wasn't aware I suggested that higher levels of AA's were detrimental to the carps welfare, I certainly didn't intend to. What I did say was that hydrolysed products in too a high levels could be detrimental to the baits TASTE.

I am confident in my baits attraction and it is nutritionally adequate, which leaves me with taste to worry about.

In my experience increasing the levels of hydrolysed milk proteins can lead to fewer runs, it really is as simple as that, I don't know why, I can only theorise.....no one knows for certain but we can discuss it, that's the fun, and if we keep open minds we can all learn, I know I am always picking up snippets of information on here that I think are worth a further look. What I won't do is accept something science says unless results on the bank clearly back it up, and in this case in my fishing they do not, there is an optimum level of hydrolysed milk proteins in a bait, I am convinced.

Nutritionally this should not be the case, but it is, so I theorise that it is because they affect the taste of a bait and in the absence of any other theory I am going with it.

Agree 100% with your final sentence, but it's just that it is possible we can go to far and spoil an otherwise good bait.

Butterbean35

Posts: 765

#79 3 Feb 2019 at 7.07pm

In reply to Post #77
Hi FPM,
I've covered most of what I would say in my post to Christian.
You say that hydros are food for zooplankton, but all bait will be so, whether predigested or broken down by lake bacteria.
As I said, hydros are just normal additives that have had some of their protein broken down. How could that inhibit taste? How can free aminos overdose gustation?
Free aminos in a steady stream of the right mix and concentration is the ultimate in feed attraction.
BB.

Butterbean35

Posts: 765

#78 3 Feb 2019 at 6.37pm

In reply to Post #73
Hi Christian,
In our bait we mostly use a mix of processed proteins. Now if you consider that these proteins are acceptable to the carp in terms of gustation, ( taste ), then why is it you think that by breaking down some of that protein, this will, somehow affect taste? When the bait is in the water, the protein will eventually be broken down completely anyway. Remember that hydrolysates are not taste enhancers, they are just protein sources, partly predigested to produce free AAs to enhance attraction. Yes, some of them, like yeasts contain useful substances that can aid attraction, but carp are hardwired by evolution to search for and respond to free aminos.
You say the extra attraction from a few more available AAs isn't going to make any difference, but it could make all the difference between an average bait and a superb bait. The most important factor to any bait is its AA feed signal. The carps reflex feed system makes it so.
It is the reason enzyme baits are so much more effective than any standard bait.
BB.

Fishpotman

Posts: 124

#77 3 Feb 2019 at 6.05pm

In reply to Post #70
Hi BB,
The bait man's mood is back to business unfortunately but he kindly provided me with two links to the abstracts in support to his approach.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S1807-86722017000100001

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16733614/

And there is another point ... hydro is a food not only for fish but for zooplankton as well. Certain types of zoo may excrete some anti attractants he said.

At the same time I'm reeding a new RB site and that new Game bait contains 5 hydro plus an emulsified one. I wonder what is the total content of them?

My point of view is that there no harm in inclusion of higher rate of liquid hydros to the bait and to remain within low levels in freebies. Frankly i've tried to substitute water or eggs in liquid part of my mixes with good results.

And I think Christian has a point about overdose in terms of gustatory issues too.

Jslinn

Posts: 2403

#76 3 Feb 2019 at 6.00pm

In reply to Post #7
It's pretty much made to order.

Jslinn

Posts: 2403

#75 3 Feb 2019 at 5.58pm

In reply to Post #6
That would be the one.

hawkmanjohn

Posts: 256

#74 3 Feb 2019 at 5.11pm

In reply to Post #73
Hi Christian

Hope the data sheet was of help.

In regards to higher levels of free amino acids being of detriment to the carp's welfare, I can't help but having to be thinking that you are incorrect.( or who has been speaking to you )
The detailed analogy I feel was somewhat inaccurate in regards to the carp and more so in what is trying to be achieved in terms of attraction and detection.
We ( this is not my analogy) are merely trying to light up as many lights on the olfaction and gustation boards of the carp.

christian

Posts: 1374

#73 3 Feb 2019 at 4.45pm

In reply to Post #58
BB
If it was only about attraction and nutrition then yes in theory then possibly you could increase the percentage of hydrolysed milk products but the carp do pick up our baits and eat them so taste has to be considered.
Now I know carp aren't the same as humans or other mammals but nevertheless here's an analogy for you.

Many of our foods and indeed other animal feed contain products that enhance the taste, this is to increase the intake. In farm animals this is to increase their weight to make them worth more and in humans its to encourage us to eat more (so products get brought more). In both cases humans and farm animals it is modifying the taste, not the nutrition, that causes a greater intake.

Now it probably is completely different in carp, but then again it might not be. Now one very common enhancer is hydrolysed vegetable protein. In products that we might add to bait it's found in Vecon, Braggs aminos and Magi sauce.

Now we would only add small quantities of these products to our food to enhance the taste, in fact adding too much could ruin the taste of the food. Do I think their is a limit in adding these products to our baits that would tip them over from being tasty to the carp to be repulsive...absolutely I do, even though the they are adding valuable available protein.

I've said this before I know but I want a bait that the carp enjoy the taste of, I have plenty enough attraction in their alreay, they will investigate my bait, the extra attraction from a few more availabe AA's isn't going to make any difference....but it might affect the taste which for me is paramount and my experience places a limit on the amount a hydrolised protein that shoud be in a bait.

Hope this makes sense.


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